And I have to tell you, I’m not too excited about the new CoH copy protection. For the copy of CoH I bought from steam, I now have to log in with two different user names and passwords to play the game? (1 for steam, 1 for relic) Even single player and LAN play?? Wow!

More fun though: having 3 copies of the game, it seems I have to register each copy’s CD-key with a different Relic ID! I suppose I also have to remember which CD-KEY goes with which Relic ID or the key will be banned, preventing me from even playing single player or over a LAN.

It’s easy to talk tough about never buying from Relic again, but I probably will buy them because I like the games Relic makes. I like Relic though now as it’s become an abusive relationship. Count me as a disappointed customer who will probably continue to buy Relic’s products, but will always be wary of them like I am with Ubisoft’s products. You’ve sunk to almost the level of Ubisoft. Bravo. At least I can still rely on Blizzard.

I’m not saying it’s right that the game not install if you have other software installed, and no, that’s not the type of copy protection I’d want (un-obtrusive means something that doesn’t get in your way).

I avoid games that have copy protection that causes conflict. More than once I’ve said “shucks, guess I won’t be buying that game”. Turns out there’s lots of other games that can take up my time though :-D

I’ll just refer back to my comment from April 3rd.

“Let me first say that I hate having to deal with copy protection. It causes more problems supporting and developing software [and] for legitimate users than it does for crackers.”

We’re on the same page when it comes to your examples, although I get to call you a pirate for pirating CivIV :-D

I still want people to stop using products they haven’t paid for. If that ever happened, we’d not need copy protection, but because it won’t, I want new methods of copy protection that are un-obtrusive, and still prevent users from using software they haven’t paid for.

I agree “piracy” is never ok. I don’t get the argument that poor quality justifies downloading anything instead of paying for it. Ummm, TM, just curious, why do you have even need a downloaded copy of it if you think it’s crap? That argument makes us all look stupid.

The real problem is defining what qualifies as “piracy”. In an ideal world, after you buy the game you should be able to USE it without being called a pirate.

Example 1: No-cd cracks. On games that I have bought, I have absolutely no problem using these when they’re available despite the fact that I’m most likely violating the EULA. But how would I know? I didn’t read it… (in that ideal world that doesn’t exist, people would also take 30 minutes and read the EULA for each of their games. And we’d all be lawyers so we could understand them.) My using them doesn’t cost developers anything.

Example 2: I play a downloaded copy of Silent Hunter III while my DVD copy sits on the shelf. Why? The UK version never included StarForce so that’s the one I play. I don’t see a problem with this either. I bought the game, I play the game. My using this instead of my Disc copy doesn’t cost developers anything.

Example 3: I also played a downloaded copy of Civ IV for quite a while after several attempts to buy the game failed. The game is fantastic, got great reviews, and I WANTED to buy it! When I did though I got an error during install after inserting the 2nd disc. I had read on the internet that there were production problems with disc 2 (the error says “disc read error”, after all)so I actually returned the game twice before taking my laptop with me to Circuit City and attempted to install it with their remaining 2 copies of the game right there at the support counter! As it turns out, the game’s safedisc copy protection detected Daemon tools (legitimate disc mounting software I use for work) on my system and “crashed” the installer on purpose. Wow. Is that what copy protection is for? To this day, 2K Games’s Civ IV support page does not mention the copy protection as being a possible cause of installation issues.

I’d really like to hear your opinion about these particular examples. I guess I’m really just daring you to call me a pirate. So please, suprise me. But I have a feeling I know what’s coming. In the Civ IV example, I probably didn’t do the right thing. I shouldn’t have downloaded a game I didn’t own, but you must admit, the situation was caused by the copy protection not stopped by it. If the copies I tried to buy had told me why they weren’t allowing me to install, I would have had my working copy and wouldn’t have needed to download it.

I think you need to read the article again.

Relic’s not claiming they lost 800,000 sales in China, just that 800,000 people from China downloaded a patch for the game. That shows interest in the product in China, but it also shows the Piracy problem in China. They won’t pay for the product if they can get access to it without paying for it.

Hence the need for new ways of copy protection (poorly worded perhaps) that prevents people from using a product without paying for it. Relic’s going the online only route to make their sales debut in mainland China. That’s a means of copy protection, making it so you have to pay access to an online service to gain access to the title.

TM:

Piracy’s never ok. If you use a product without paying for it, and the product’s only intended to be used after the creators/publishers have been compensated, you shouldn’t be using it unless you’ve forked over the requested fee. The answer to the product being crap and not worth the fee is not “Pirate it” it’s “Don’t use it” or “Wait until it’s in the bargin bin for 5 bucks and buy it then”

Copy protection both sucks, and meddles with PC internals. Its got a stinking bad reputation. I am sad to say that if developers put bad DRM on games, I simply don’t buy them. Period.

I bought company of heroes, AND opposing fronts, and bought a GFX card that has Company of heroes. As a paying customer, please BOG off with the DRM. The argument you suffer from 800k of sales in China is busted as soon as you say you never sold it there. You can’t claim piracy of your product when the product does not officially exist. You are not losing sales there, because YOU never sold it there.

Now go block China from the download sites, IF it costs you bandwidth.

PC gaming is in a hole, but its not merely from piracy, its from bad products, high prices, and technical problems the users face. I bought CoE, and OF, but all the DRM and limitation on LAN gaming and the rest just makes me like a great number of other people pissed off. Instead of worrying about the people who are NOT customers, try looking at it another way, QUIT pissing off those people who are.

DRM repeatedly punishes people like me, not the pirates, and I am sick of it.

By the way, GREAT Game in both cases, I was glad to pay for such a good product, and so were others. Focus on that first. Not the latent piracy in far flung corners of the world where you are not selling your product anyway.

Apology accepted.

Just FYI, all I had to go on was your comment about LAN gaming multiple installs where you seem to support people isntalling multiple copies. If that wasn’t what you actually mean then consider my comments edited accordingly :-)

Oh… about CoH being without copy protection… I heard somewhere that it was slated to have copy protection, but they couldn’t get it working for some reason so yanked it at the last minute. That probably got them a lot of new sales from folks like yourself, but then it lost them sales opportunities (not actual sales, as obviously not all of those people would have purchased it) when folks figured they could install it and not need the DVD in the drive.

You misread. I didn’t refer to MY intelligence in the second post. I was refuting your sarcasm when you stated the use of a profanity was “clearly the mark of an intelligent person”. I merely defended myself, and here I am doing it again. Hey, I can be a jerk (as I’m sure you can tell), but in this case, if I were being a self righteous prick (thanks, by the way), I would be saying I’m better than others or asking for something I’m not entitled to. All I’m really asking for is to be treated better than a software pirate. Is that unreasonable?

Uber

I totally admit I was upset, it was wrong to lower myself to personal attacks and I apologize.

You’re right however that I wasn’t actually called a pirate, but saying simply that I AGREE with pirates reduces the issue to a point being almost equally insulting. I do NOT believe it’s ok to use a product without paying for it. In fact why should I belive that? Why should people get something for free that the rest of us have to pay for. The issue of being able to play multiplayer with a single disc is another matter entirely. I still think it’s a good idea, give the customer something that others are stealing, but it was far more relevant 5 years ago when games didn’t require a $400 top of the line videocard.

Where we differ is in the terms described in the EULA. I think when it comes down to a product’s usability and a technicality in some arbitrary EULA, something that only the paying customer has to held accountable for in the first place, maybe concessions should be made in the name of customer satisfaction? If you really want to put a dent in piracy, why be so restrictive with the people who actually buy your product? Technically, i’m not sure how EULAs can be enforced against people under 18 anyway, but that’s beside the point.

So I guess all that remains is why bother with it at all? CoH actually came up as being a game with no copy protection, which is what got me to buy it initially! I mean, it can’t be cheap to license securom. Yay for stopping zero day piracy! But why implement it now? I only realized in Feb that I didn’t need to put the disc in to play, so I hardly got to make use of it. The only thing thats changed is that people who do own the game now have to play with the disc in the drive! Unless of course they download the no-cd crack, at which point, they cease to be customers and become EULA-violating software pirates.

We really are pretty much on the same side here. Like I said, I was mad before and I hope you accept my apology. That was when I thought I was being called a pirate after having bought so much of Relic’s software in particular! I like relic! I have Dawn of War Gold on disc, Dawn of War Platinum on Steam, HomeWorld Game of the Year Edition on disc, CoH Collector’s Edition, CoH, CoH Gold on Steam. I love the PC as a gaming platform! I dont’ think that entitles me to special treatment but I just don’t want the hobby ruined. It must be frustrating to put a lot of time, money, and effort into making a game only to know that people out there are stealing it. But please, don’t punish the people who actually buy it with draconian copy protection like starforce or FSX style activation. (Bioshock’s activation turned out fine, 5 is fair, you can revoke activations, still requires the disc, no problem) Fine, require the disc in the drive, that isn’t too much to ask. But as there are no-cd cracks available, I’m not sure what good that does. Just keeping the honest people honest, eh?

(on a side note, it seems most copy protection is at least less annoying but as equally ineffective as those Anti Piracy PSAs that play at the beginning of legit DVDs. Again, keeping the honest people honest)